Nice. I agree with the sentiment.

I really wish everyone could state, clearly and without a "don't want to offend" excuse, that they're too scared. Even something like this would be acceptable.

We think the cartoons are in bad taste. However, even if we did, we would be too scared to publish them. We fear violence from those who do not respect free speech.

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Posted by softwareNerd to Thrutch at 3/31/2006 06:53:59 PM

"Daniel, the event was the Unveiling of the Cartoons, I don't see how that could be done without unveiling the cartoons"

Au contraire. By not unveiling the cartoons the NYU administration indeed unveiled the cartoon of selective moral cowardice. Perhaps they should have *unveiled* anti-Christian or anti-Jewish art that NYU has exhibited in the past. Then not only would their cowardice be caricatured by the blank easels, but their hypocrisy from the NYU sanctioned "heresies" of which they approve.

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Posted by Bill to Thrutch at 3/31/2006 08:08:08 AM

Daniel, the event was the Unveiling of the Cartoons, I don't see how that could be done without unveiling the cartoons. For reference see: http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12025

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/30/2006 08:53:54 PM

I agreed with your analysis and then I read this at Bidinotto's blog:

http://bidinotto.journalspace.com/?cmd=displaycomments&dcid=366&entryid=366

If you read all his updates and his comments, he makes a pretty good case that this is more like Yahoo or Google in China than the Phoenix case.

G. Davis

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/30/2006 08:42:45 PM

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. If I had to argue NYU's case, I would say that showing the cartoons was not part of the intellectual content of this event and that the actual discussion was not interfered with. I think they would be wrong, though, for the same reason that it would be wrong to demand that an art history professor teach without showing slides of paintings. In general, source material IS part of the intellectual content of a presentation.

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Posted by Daniel to Thrutch at 3/30/2006 08:41:43 PM

Daniel, I replied as a separate post, you can find it here: http://amitghate.blogspot.com/2006/03/reconciling-nyu-and-borders.html

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/30/2006 07:51:27 PM

Oh, I love the bit where they are concerned because the anglo-saxon newspapers are denigrating their image. If these people ever figured out the difference between image and reality, they might actually get somewhere.

France, the "good" socialists. Funny how their economy doesn't work any better than the Soviet's did. Funny haha, not funny odd.

oldsalt

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Posted by to Thrutch at 3/30/2006 01:57:57 PM

I'm curious, why is it reasonable for Borders to do this but unreasonable for NYU to bar the Objectivist Club from showing the cartoons at a public event?

I suppose you might argue that the actual (as opposed to the pretended) motivation is different in the two cases, but if so, I don't think the difference in motivation is obvious.

--
Posted by Daniel to Thrutch at 3/30/2006 01:29:59 PM

Hi Daniel,

That's a good question and one I even considered addressing in the post. I have to run right now, but I will put up a response either tonight or tomorrow by mid-day. Please check back.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/30/2006 01:51:31 PM

I'm at a bit of a loss here. The goal isn't to "tick off" anyone, it's to defend ourselves from a vicious enemy, viz. militant Islam. Understanding the nature of that enemy is one of the key elements in defeating it, which is why I posted the information.

--
Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/27/2006 01:45:35 PM

I’ve heard from a Turk that the best way to tick of a muslim is to call them a “Mohommedan”. I’m not going to test this assertion directly, but some people are asking for it.

--
Posted by David, The Machine to Thrutch at 3/27/2006 01:38:57 PM

Hi John,

Thanks for letting me know and good luck with that debate. Also, fyi, there have been quite a few hits on the essay due to your other post on LJ, so thank you for having taken the time to recommend it.

--
Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/25/2006 04:44:20 PM

Hello, I used the dates/numbers in your article in an online debate here:
http://community.livejournal.com/politics/160247.html?thread=1581303#t1581303
In case you wanted to know. :)

--
Posted by Johnmonkey to Thrutch at 3/25/2006 04:18:12 PM

Thank you for the correction Will. I have updated the post to reflect your point.

--
Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/23/2006 03:18:47 PM

He didnt ban anything, he has ben pressured by the MAC to ask people not to bring the cartoons. he didnt ban them and the head stuard has said they will not stop people with the cartoons.

--
Posted by Will to Thrutch at 3/23/2006 02:44:30 PM

Every other article that I've ever read on the situation, including published papers, pales in comparison to yours. I would love to shake your hand.

--
Posted by Kyle to Thrutch at 3/20/2006 10:38:37 AM

Thanks Nestor, Gideon, John and Apollo (who commented on the reprints link). When I have time I will check out the Van Creveld article which Apollo mentioned.

--
Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/18/2006 07:45:58 PM

I just finished reading your 'All for One' article and I loved it!

It was perfect, I only wish we had leaders that would say some of the things you said.

One of your last paragraphs really caught my attention though:

"For if we fail to reverse our pattern, men will continue to learn that their rights are a sham, that the government’s promise to protect the individual is a hoax, and that only by refraining from thinking and speaking out might they be momentarily safe. Men will then go on to realize that they must seek out true protectors, in the form of some gang; ethnic, religious or otherwise; who may afford them a measure of security, albeit at the cost of complete obedience. Eventually the gangs will fight it out in an effort to wrest absolute power and to subjugate the others."


It reminded me of an article called 'The Fate of the State' by MARTIN VAN CREVELD.

I highly recommend it; it talks about the failure of the state and people turning to non-state forces (clans, gangs, tribes) to do what the state used to do.

I don’t agree with all the premises or conclusions, but it’s an interesting read.

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Posted by Apollo to Thrutch at 3/18/2006 07:23:23 PM

An excellent work, the best thing I've read in the past several month. I'll draw attention to it on my blog, but I can't say that it'll be seen by more than a dozen people. I don't mind this stuff from the usual Christian perspective, but it's nice to have it from an athiest. Thank you very much for this!

--
Posted by Johnmonkey to Thrutch at 3/18/2006 07:15:03 PM

Just got a chance to read this. An excellent article!

Thanks,

Gideon

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Posted by Gideon to Thrutch at 3/17/2006 01:39:24 PM

I want to thank the reader who has taken the time and effort to translate my essay into Hungarian. Of course I don't speak a word of Hungarian, so can't comment on, much less bless, the translation, but here is the link for anyone interested: http://cikkek.soti.ca/all-for-one.html

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/16/2006 08:38:36 AM

Nice to have you here JMB! And I agree that article on Nick's site was great.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/15/2006 07:35:13 PM

I found your blog through Nick Provenza's "Carnival of the Objectivists", which site I found via NoodleFood You are now keyed into my fav shortcuts.

As I commented on the post about the punishment of the young Iranian boy, I'm a military brat and was in the Navy. When I first read Ayn Rand, it was like coming home. Reading this man's reason for fighting was like listening to my father explain to me why we were in the Navy. Again, it was like coming home. Thank you so much for directing me to that article.

JMB

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/15/2006 01:30:41 AM

I was among the first military families with children to be allowed to be posted with my father in Japan after the war. I saw many terrible things.

I spent two tours in Viet Nam as a Navy nurse. I saw many terrible things.

Looking at these pictures have left me with frustrated tears of deep moral outrage. The same thing happens to me when I read of the gang rape of innocent young girls which have been ordered by tribal elders and religious leaders. Or the mutilation of young girls so they will never enjoy sex. Or any of the dozens of other atrocities these people commit in the name of religion.

At least in the wake of war, and in the middle of war itself, one expects to see terrible things; that is the awful nature of war. But nothing can ever excuse what goes on in Muslim culture.

JMB

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/15/2006 01:09:28 AM

I probably should mention that I disagree with the idea of presenting Ms. Ali's ideas as a form of "feminism", and indeed I suspect the author would even agree given that she finishes with: "Y viene a pedir también que defendamos con convicción aquello por lo que los islamistas odian a Occidente: la libertad del individuo, ya sea hombre o mujer, para decidir sobre su propia vida y para expresar públicamente sus opiniones." (Emphasis added.)

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/14/2006 12:47:33 PM

Thanks James, when I have some free time I will definitely check it out. While I was growing up Petr Beckmann was my hero, and his "The Health Hazards of NOT Going Nuclear" was one of my favorite books.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/14/2006 07:17:59 AM

FYI: For a entertaining look at nuclear power from the inside, take a gander at my blog, which presents a novel on the topic written by a longtime nuclear worker (me). There is no cost to readers - and they seem to like it, judging from the comments on the homepage. (RadDecision.blogspot.com)

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Posted by James Aach to Thrutch at 3/13/2006 09:11:17 PM

I'll be driving up to Baltimore tonight from Chicago to attend the event. I hope to write my own review on my blog as soon as I get back.

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Posted by Ergo Sum to Thrutch at 3/12/2006 05:15:11 PM

About the Mohamed cartoons, Nicolas Sarkozy in France said that he'd rather have "too much satire than too much censorship". There's hope...

--
Posted by JDelage to Thrutch at 3/11/2006 11:19:41 AM

I noticed the "Christian propagandists did not miss the chance to attack Atheists of which I am one. Retire Marine Mustang, and I fear not. Edwin L. Dailey, Jr. Austin, Texas ...this is one of the best writings of the failures of our Government I have witnessed. I am a Objectivist as well and read Objectivist Intellectual information every day and have for years. I say this because I veiw the ideas put forth by Objectivism to be our only methodology to retake the proud name of "Westerner"

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Posted by nestor-patou@sbcglobal.net to Thrutch at 3/11/2006 07:35:56 AM

Just ask Ardsgaine who frequents VodkaPundit. He admits he'll never win against someone who actually believes in {horror!} christianity.

Only because you are impervious to reason, Chuckles, and I don't like wasting my time by treating you like a rational human being. I still remember that our last conversation ended up with you claiming to have had encounters with the supernatural. To borrow from Schopenhauer, that position is more in need of a cure than a refutation.

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Posted by Ardsgaine to Thrutch at 3/11/2006 07:24:18 AM

I emailed artists or their syndicates as I could find them, and have received permission to use about half of the cartoons at your link. Thank you for the suggestion.

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Posted by Brian Most to Thrutch at 3/09/2006 08:54:42 PM

LGF picked this up. The thread is here: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19575_UCLA_to_Unveil_Dreaded_Cartoons#comments

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/09/2006 10:38:49 AM

Hi Ori,

That's alright with me provided:
1) You mention that the translation is yours, and that I haven't reviewed the translation.
2) That the reprints reference the web address of the original english document.
3) That you contact me with some details of where this is going as well as providing me a copy of the translated essay. You can use the allforonedistribution@hotmail.com email address and my friend will forward me the info.

Thanks for taking the time to do this and good luck!

--
Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 08:22:52 PM

Amit,

I would like to translate your article into Hebrew and distribute printed copies to students at my university.

What do you say?

Ori,
Israel

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Posted by Ori to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 08:13:07 PM

All For One - Reprints

A very close friend of mine, Wayne M., wants to help expose as many people as possible to the ideas in my “All For One” article -- and as a result has offered to print and ship copies of the article to anyone interested in distributing them on college campuses. Resources are limited, so materials will be provided on a first-come, first-served basis. Anyone interested should email him by March 17 at the following address: allforonedistribution@hotmail.com (Please note that, other than having written the article, I am not involved in this distribution project -- so please use the email address rather than leaving messages here.)

--
Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 03:11:24 PM

TO: Anonymouse
RE: Yeah...Right....

"No, we did it to them when we marched into Iraq, and now Iran. DO try to stay on topic." -- Anonymouse

Wasn't it YOU who brought up the off-topic Childrens' Crusade and other even more off-topic issues?

What's the matter? Short-term memory loss?


"Thinking about it," is not the same, as actually experiencing it. Come back when you've really experienced something. Then we'll talk

Oh yeah: you've obviously "thought" about it; but you've clearly not actually "met" many Muslims." -- Anonymouse

My brother-in-law is Iranian, buckie.

Went back to Iran to install the current regime. However, most of the family had to flee to Paris in order to avoid the Iranian Reign of Terror.

Not to mention having served and gone to school with a number of them. Courtesy of your mutual rich Uncle Sam.

As I said, I know a bit more about it than you apparently do, youngster.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

--
Posted by Chuck Pelto to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 02:58:12 PM

I am always amazed at the number of people who think personal attacks and unsupported assertions are rational arguments. When will people learn that rants and logic are not the same?

It is a shame that such a wonderful essay ends up with irrational responses.

Keep up the great writing Amit. Some of us can definitely appreciate a coherent presentation of ideas and concepts.

--
Posted by RadCap to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 02:53:13 PM

TO: Anonymouse
RE: A Boy Named....

..."Chuck(le)"

"Yeah, look. With a name like that: how could I NOT take you seriously??" -- Anonymouse

I guess you'll just have to get a better grasp of American English and culture.

RE: Live As We Wish

"Translation: consume 7x more than anyone else; drive around gas-guzzling monsters in the midst of a global fuel-shortage; sit around and listen to a box all day; and listen to a President who lied about why we went to war.

Whoah! What a lifestyle! No WONDER everyone hates the US!! They all want to imitate our slovenly ignorant and pampered lifestyle, no doubt." -- Anonymouse

Develop technologies that spare millions of live from famine, illness, ignorance, etc., etc., etc.

Ain't US just aaaaweful! But that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Islmaic terrorism, as we all know. You're just grabbing at straws here. And soon, you'll be grabbing at other peoples' straws.

But, have it your way.

I hear there are some REALLY unpolluted by mankind places still available on this ball o dirt. You KNOW where you can get an airline ticket to go there and live.

You remind me of those people in Rainbow 6.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Life in the state of nature is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. -- Thomas Hobbes]

--
Posted by Chuck Pelto to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 02:48:59 PM

"What did his army call their scimitars? Stealers of Souls?

Care to buy another clue?"

Yeah, how about THESE clues: the assassination and replacemwenr of Mossadek with the Shah; the bombing of Lebanon; the starving of over a MILLION Iraqi children...

"RE: Dhimmis R U?"

RE: can you properly spell words?

"No, Moslem's aren't saintly: but have you ever stopped and thought for a moment why they "hate" us?" -- anonymouse

"I've thought about it. And apparently I've studied it a LOT more than you have.

They hate us because we are not Muslim."

Oh yeah: you've obviously "thought" about it; but you've clearly not actually "met" many Muslims.

"Thinking about it," is not the same, as actually experiencing it. Come back when you've really experienced something. Then we'll talk.

RE: Really?

"Perhaps it's because we bomb their homes, starve them, imprison and torture them without ID'ing them, and then we clap ourselves on the back, telling them (And ourselves) that we're doin' it for democracy." -- anonymouse

"I didn't know we were doing that to them when they conquered Spain, tried to conquor France and invaded central Europe in the 1600s."

No, we did it to them when we marched into Iraq, and now Iran. DO try to stay on topic.

RE: Projection, Anyone?

"When are we going to finally wake up and smell the spin-cycle?" -- anonymouse

"Look who's talking.

Regards,

Chuck(le)"

Yeah, look. With a name like that: how could I NOT take you seriously??

"P.S. We aren't doing it for 'democracy'. We're doing it to stay alive and live as WE wish, instead of dhimmitude."

Oh, "live as we wish."

Translation: consume 7x more than anyone else; drive around gas-guzzling monsters in the midst of a global fuel-shortage; sit around and listen to a box all day; and listen to a President who lied about why we went to war.

Whoah! What a lifestyle! No WONDER everyone hates the US!! They all want to imitate our slovenly ignorant and pampered lifestyle, no doubt.

Uh huh.

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 09:28:59 AM

TO: anonymouse
RE: History Lessons....AGAin....

"But Christians brought us the Children's Crusade..." -- anonymouse

Let's see....Children's Crusade. Boy that was...when...1212?

When did the Emir cross the Pyrennes to attempt conquest of Europe? 732 ring a bell?

What did his army call their scimitars? Stealers of Souls?

Care to buy another clue?

RE: Dhimmis R U?

"No, Moslem's aren't saintly: but have you ever stopped and thought for a moment why they "hate" us?" -- anonymouse

I've thought about it. And apparently I've studied it a LOT more than you have.

They hate us because we are not Muslim.

RE: Really?

"Perhaps it's because we bomb their homes, starve them, imprison and torture them without ID'ing them, and then we clap ourselves on the back, telling them (And ourselves) that we're doin' it for democracy." -- anonymouse

I didn't know we were doing that to them when they conquered Spain, tried to conquor France and invaded central Europe in the 1600s.

RE: Projection, Anyone?

"When are we going to finally wake up and smell the spin-cycle?" -- anonymouse

Look who's talking.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. We aren't doing it for 'democracy'. We're doing it to stay alive and live as WE wish, instead of dhimmitude.

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Posted by Chuck Pelto to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 05:59:17 AM

How funny, reading the pontificatory nonsense that passes for "wisdom," here.

It is achingly clear how little you lot understand Islam, and (worse) how little you understand Christianity. Islam is a religion of peace, as is Christianity. But Christians brought us the Children's Crusade; the Holocaust of women (called the witch-burnings); and the repression of religious minorities and sects throughout Europe (not to mention their tender treatment of Jews).

No, Moslem's aren't saintly: but have you ever stopped and thought for a moment why they "hate" us? Perhaps it's because we bomb their homes, starve them, imprison and torture them without ID'ing them, and then we clap ourselves on the back, telling them (And ourselves) that we're doin' it for democracy.

When are we going to finally wake up and smell the spin-cycle? This whole "war on terror" drech is nothing more than some new propaganda, wrapped around an old theme...domination. There IS no "war of civilizations:" there's just the same old story...the have more's pounding on the Middle-Eastern have-not's.

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/07/2006 01:21:10 AM

Hi Capitalist,

Thanks for your encouragement and for anything you might do to help get the word out.

Also, the attacks you cite should have been included, and if I re-issue the piece, I will be certain to amend the oversight.

Thanks again,

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/06/2006 12:02:41 PM

I noticed a couple attacks were not mentioned, the bombing in a Bali night club in 2002 that killed many Australians and Americans.

And a second attack which was the bombing of the Australian embassy in Jakarta in 2004.

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Posted by Capitalist to Thrutch at 3/06/2006 11:54:08 AM

Thank you for writing this.

I knew Islam to be a dire threat and some of the attacks of which you had described, but with how you laid it out chronologically, it clearly shows the systematic attack on Western civilisation by Islam.

I will also be forwarding this article to everyone that I know.

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Posted by Capitalist to Thrutch at 3/06/2006 11:41:38 AM

Until people stop putting themselves on a pedestal we will never be able to coexist as a cohesive world society. We are not better than anyone else in this world; we only have lived larger than them.

...We only lived larger than them...

This smells of guilt, most of the
passifistic nihlism present in
the anti-religious zealots .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihlism

...coexist as a cohesive world society. We are not better than anyone else in this world...

If you think the Islamic nations
are cohesive by running thru the
streets of Indonesia with machetes
lopping each other heads off your
nuts . If you think the Muslims
that lopped the head off a 67 year
old buddhist monk in thailand for
"no reason at all" are EQUAL to us
your a friggin fool .

Equality is something our founding
fathers put in the paper that
built the US, but if you
choose to treat others inequally
then as a criminal you lose some
of your rights as a citizen as
a felon .

Thus those who act unlawlfully
around the world to those who are
innocents are nothing more than
organized criminal religious
zealots of hate .

Islam is totalitarianism thru
religion, and will not abide
your carefree "fly free"
open societal ...

"why can't we all just get along"

philosphy...

Philosphy dies on the point of
the unyielding sword, and that
is aimed squarely at the necks
of any that question Islam .

Ex-MislTech
Duane M. Navarre
duanenavarre@yahoo.com

Although you bring up a plethora of novel ideas and thoughts (few of which I personally ascribe, though valuable just the same), the problem with your reasoning is that you speak in terms of divisions, that westerners are different from everyone else. Until people stop putting themselves on a pedestal we will never be able to coexist as a cohesive world society. We each have different values, and it's folly to describe one's values to be right and one's to be wrong, just so long as no one is harmed in such thought. Of course, a case may be made for evil in both western and eastern socities. But I digress, the point is that regardless of what we believe, regardless of who we are, we are ALL intrinsically the same. There is no need to divide people into groups as many a time you do. With regards to secularization, I believe that your essay loses value.

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Posted by Fly Free Forever to Thrutch at 3/05/2006 01:09:00 PM

Hi Brian,

Well I'm no art critic, but the ones that I thought were pretty bad are now gone. Sorry to comment on the site before you had finished ... I only found out about it because I happened to be looking at where readers of my essay were coming from.

As an aside, and not knowing the copyright issues which might be involved, you might like to see some of the cartoons that I linked to in this post: http://amitghate.blogspot.com/2006/03/cartoons-inspired-by-cartoon-jihad.html
I particularly like the one by Kevin Siers and the one by John Trever.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/04/2006 02:33:17 PM

I hadn't expected anyone to spot the site quite as soon as several people did, or I would have password-protected it while working. :)

I started last night with the full contents of several image collections while I was still working on the site code, then spent the last couple hours whittling the collection to about one third of the original size. What's left are images I judge most germane to the comic controversy, as well as a few comedy choices (a basket full of kittens, Pac Man chasing multi-colored burka-ghosts, etc).

You can see all images being used with this special URL:
http://www.amifatwaornot.org/?showall=1

If you see images that you believe do more harm than good, I'd be glad to have the number to the left of the corresponding images. No promises on removing anything, but I'm always willing to listen to reason.

--
Posted by Brian Most to Thrutch at 3/04/2006 02:02:41 PM

TO: Anonymous
RE: Who Will Fight?

"We are essentially hedonists and as the Brussels Journal observed: 'Nobody fights for the flag of hedonism, not even the hedonists themselves'.

What you demand will not happen." -- Anonymous

As I was saying (above), don't expect much of atheists when it comes time to go out and actually 'fight' for what they believe in, especially when they realize that the people they are fighting against are not worried about dying in the process.

That even applies to discussions such as these. Atheists surrender the field of [intellectual/philisophical] battle against christians. It happens ALL the time.

Just ask Ardsgaine who frequents VodkaPundit. He admits he'll never win against someone who actually believes in {horror!} christianity.

The same applies to Europe. It'll go down the toilet, if it doesn't get out of its faithless funk of angst and ennui [please pardon my french]. Your comment only supports my idea of that.

Atheists, everywhere, are particularly succeptible to this problem. And, when confronted with their problem, what do they do? They 'kill the messenger'.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

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Posted by Chuck Pelto to Thrutch at 3/04/2006 08:28:28 AM

We Europeans are inculcated to respect everyone and everything. We take freedom for granted and the notion of sacrifice is completely alien to us. We are essentially hedonists and as the Brussels Journal observed: 'Nobody fights for the flag of hedonism, not even the hedonists themselves'.

What you demand will not happen.

--
Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/04/2006 06:40:17 AM

TO: Jim
RE: Errata

I cited the battle of Toulons (c 802).

I was mistaken. It was the battle of Tours, 10 Oct 732, that turned back the Muslims lead by Emir Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi Abd al Rahman. Killed the Emir and dashed Islam's hope of conquering Europe.

Sorry for that mistake.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

--
Posted by Chuck Pelto to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 06:37:02 PM

Thanks Andy, and btw, I really like the way you expressed the idea in your post (which I just saw now):

http://www.andy-macdonald.net/archives/000224.html#000224

 
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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 06:12:31 PM

Amit,

Thank you very much for writing this. As Islamists engage in a jihad against us, we need to push back with our own, a free-had to stand up for our rights. Your comments are dead one.

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Posted by Andy MacDonald to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 06:08:20 PM

TO: Anonymous
RE: Dhimmis R US?

"....it is probably more correct to say that the West started becoming dhimmis since 1973, the first oil crisis." -- Anonymous

That's an interesting idea.

And, probably much to Jim's chagrin, the christians are probably the only people with the gonads to resist Islam.

Atheists don't quite have the 'enthusiasm' to resist to the proverbial 'bitter end'. Why? Well, to them, their perception IS the 'end'. On the other hand, the atheists' end is just the end of another chapter. The next chapter is even better.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

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Posted by Chuck Pelto to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 05:51:23 PM

excellent article. However, it is probably more correct to say that the West started becoming dhimmis since 1973, the first oil crisis. If you look at the response to dozens of hijacking by Moslem terrorists as well as to the oil boycott, you will find the beginning of dimmitude there. Since then the West has lost/gave up its values.

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 04:58:02 PM

Didn't get past the beginning of your essay as it is clear that you are espousing the same old tired "libertarian" anti-Christian lines about the development of Western civilization. Try checking out a book entitled The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success. The Protestant Reformation, an important development within Christianity, was especially important in developing the values of individualism, bottom-up political structures, and asking authority-challenging questions. And it ultimately led to the value of social tolerance for differing beliefs.

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 04:23:17 PM

This should be published on the opion page of every MSM paper in the United States. Amit has given us a glimpse into the future: a future given over to darkness and ruled by hearts that are black. Islam is not a religion. It is a political system disguised as a religion and intent on the comlete subjugation or destruction of the Western world. Beware ye citizens of the West. Beware.

--
Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 03:53:32 PM

TO: Jim
RE: Speaking of History Lessons

"I suggest they get with a good book, which would be any history book of the period from the end of the Roman Empire to the beginning of the Renaissance." -- Jim

If you're familiar with your history of that era, you've apparently forgotten about the Battle of Toulons (c. 802).

Otherwise, you'd be praying towards Mecca now.

RE: Don't You Just Wish

"I see the Christians continue to pretend that Christianity is somehow an author, rather than the defeated enemy, of the Enlightenment." -- Jim

But we can discuss THAT over at my place.


Regards,

Chuck(le)

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Posted by Chuck Pelto to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 03:36:19 PM

I see the Christians continue to pretend that Christianity is somehow an author, rather than the defeated enemy, of the Enlightenment.

I suggest they get with a good book, which would be any history book of the period from the end of the Roman Empire to the beginning of the Renaissance. Does it look familiar? It should.... it's just modern Islam without the Internet. THAT is Christianity unleavened.

It wasn't until Aquinas set the genie of Aristotle loose in the Church that the dark chains forged by St. Augustine began to rust. And it was those ideas, not any stemming from Christianity itself, which authored the Enlightenment.

If Christanity deserves any credit at all, it's in the fact that (after a protracted fight) it got out of the way of the new era, and then "adapted" to it (as the Pope recently put it); it allowed itself to be tamed. Islam fears that same fate.

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Posted by Jim to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 02:08:18 PM

Amit,

If you could make this more concise it would make an excellent OP ED for the WSJ or someone with enough guts to publish it.

I have distributed the essay to over 700 people and all are shocked at the truth in what you say and our (the West's) part in our potential downfall.

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 01:50:30 PM

A very nice and insightful post!

I think the governments of the west must wakeup very quickly. The primary difficulty lies (as many have said) in the deep denial and confusion of the Left, the fascism of the Politically Correct and the idiocy of the MSM. The "long march through the institutions" has left us in debilitated state and Islamofascists are a opportunistic disease.

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Posted by Valis to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 12:29:45 PM

This is a really brilliant essay.

It's good to be reminded of what Western values really are.

In Australia where I live, we are told to respect and not offend the cultures and beliefs of everyone except the mainstream Australians. Our prime minister tells Muslims they should be more "Australian", but it is unclear what that means. Does it mean you stand around in the backyard having a barbeque and drinking fosters beer? Does it mean democracy? We have seen in Palestine where democracy leads.

I think what it does mean to be an "Australian" or a "Westerner" is that we should aim to foster and live by those Western values that you have described in your essay.

We take these values for granted in our Western societies and I would guess that over 90% of people interviewed in the street at random would not know what it means to be a Westerner. Its easy to trivialise being a Westerner with the right to eat McDonalds food and the freedom to watch porno films (interestingly McDonalds stores are often the first target of third world mobs). That is possibly why many of the young people in the West are drifting aimlessly, with no core belief system, abusing drugs and in extreme cases converting to the "certainty" of Islam.

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Posted by Kevin to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 12:23:55 PM

I think you have put your fingers on the very things that are eroding our society today. Well done.
However, I do have one comment. You wrote in this paragraph:

"Specifically, he does not need to join a gang or tribe whose members will help him battle others. In civilized society there is no need to ally oneself with members of one’s race or ethnicity (as do the Tutsi’s and Hutus in Rwanda; or the Serbs, Croats and Albanians in the Balkans), or of one’s religious sect (as do Sunni’s, Shiites, Jews and Christians throughout most of the Middle East..."

I would submit to you that Jews be left off this list. For they have formed a western government guided by the same principles you and I hold dear. BUT I also observe that they too are pandering, (yet perhaps slower) to the juggernaut of Islam, (Gush Katif).

It is now that we need great statesmen, and greater citizens to wake up to the peril our way of life is in.

Thank you for your lucid summary.

Now we need to get to work.

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Posted by David to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 12:22:16 PM

I'd like to second Chuck Pelto's remark: you have merely passed along the same anticlerical propaganda that was promulgated at the time of the Enlightenment. In so doing, you've displayed a type of "irrational superstition" about religion.

I'm sure I'd suggest you read some very fine books on the subject, starting with, perhaps, Regine Pernoud's book "Those Terrible Middle Ages: Debunking the Myths", among others.

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 12:23:08 PM

Nice piece... I'd cut the first part... Our Judeo Christian heritage is our glory... but never mind... the rest is perfectly true and convincing... but there's a twist... Normally it is quite good to leave religions alone, that is to avoid berating religions needlessly. It's amity and comity. That is how Islam, which hides behind religion comes off demanding respect. No leader is going to say: "go ahead, in the name of free speech, have a ball insulting religions!"
This is the diabolical cleverness of Islam. They are masters at creating discord. We should not only denounce and expose Islam, but perhaps take out that famous cross that's lying in the jug of urine and give it a shine. A two pronged attack: dessecrating them, but also defending what is sacred to us... simple things, like a world without terror, like utter horror for that Hamas mother, contempt for pedophilia and the mistreatment of women...

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Posted by Iosh to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 12:20:39 PM

Amit,

This is an excellent synopsis of what is, on our side, the main problem. Our weak responses of the past 25 years are particularly striking when summarized in a single essay.

Our leadership, whether in government or other key institutions, has been astonishing in its combination of PC-multicultural blindness and plain, animal cowardice.

In Europe, the time may be coming soon when groups of private citizens take matters into their own hands, and deal with the savages in their midst with methods that will themselves be savage. Here, we are not as far along the same path, but we are on it.

Tony

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Posted by Anthony Gillis to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 11:23:37 AM

TO: Amit Ghate
RE: A Slight 'Quibble'

"...during the Dark Ages, Western tradition was nearly extinguished by Christianity, whose irrational doctrines rejected the importance of the individual’s happiness on earth and of the existence of a knowable world; to instead preach abject self-denial in this world and salvation in a mystical after-life." -- Amit Ghate

I suspect you are not that familiar with christianity.

Whereas I agree that the monastic orders were inclined to see and preach that approach to life, that is not what won out. It was the peoples' desire to live a well and prosper.

The monastics DID save the Western tradition by saving the learnings, carrying them through the Dark Ages; for 400 years until the Medieval Ages came.

As for the idea that christianity is opposed to people enjoying themselves, may I suggest a good Book? Check out Ecclesiastes and get back with me.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

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Posted by Chuck Pelto to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 11:11:29 AM

Great article! I totally agree with your message. I just wish I knew what I can do as an individual to defend my Country against the insanity that seems to be rampant. I'm a retired Marine and too old now (52) to go back in - I'd be there in a heartbeat if I could. Stay motivated & semper fi.

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Posted by Joe (CWO-3, USMC, Retired) to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 10:58:26 AM

Hi DuckyDan,

I agree with you and think that it is scary to speak out. But the more people who do, the less scary it will be. And the longer we wait, the more entrenched the threat will have become ... making it even harder to speak out later than it is now.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 10:34:20 AM

This is great!! I am a pretty irreverent guy who mouths off without concern for consequences, but I worry about posting anti-Islam materials. Most people are being terrorized. They must think twice before expressing legitimate and legal, views.

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Posted by DuckyDan to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 10:30:11 AM

Thank you Jane, and please pass on my thanks to your son and all his brave comrades who are protecting our freedom. Many of us truly appreciate it.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 10:23:05 AM

I am sending your article to my son who is in the United States Army and to all the editors and publishers of the Wisconsin State Journal and the Capital Times in Madison, Wisconsin.
This is a confirmation of what my son believes.
This information, however, will be news to those who work for the major "news"papers of Wisconsin.

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Posted by Jane Lee to Thrutch at 3/03/2006 10:20:22 AM