This would indeed be a worthwhile project (activism to encourage the US to leave the UN). Just getting to the point where this can be seriously discussed as a reasonable position would be an achievement. Of course, we presently stay in the UN because all our intellectual presently think it's a good thing. As usual the solution lies with New Intellectuals who would advocate a more rational position.

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Posted by Gideon to Thrutch at 7/28/2006 12:13:50 PM

An interesting quote by Churchill:
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities – but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”

-Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).

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Posted by Jeff to Thrutch at 7/24/2006 02:05:40 PM

Hi Janet,

Isaac Schrodinger has compiled links to the various photo galleries here.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 7/23/2006 09:42:27 AM

LGF has a gallery of pictures from pro-Hezbollah rallies in cities from Sweden to Australia, with examples from the major US cities, of course. I've never seen such confidence displayed by protestors before. They are shockingly blatant about taking over the world. If anyone has harbored the least doubt about the ultimate goal of Islam, this series of pictures ought to blast it to pieces. If anyone doubts that Hezbollah, and every other incarnation of Islamic totalitarians, is a part of the civilian population, take a look at the civilian population that supports them.

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Posted by Janet Busch to Thrutch at 7/23/2006 02:38:29 AM

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the comment. I agree with the sentiment expressed by your Coventry example, though after researching it a bit, I came to the conclusion that the story itself is "urban legend" and didn't happen the way you were taught. See for instance message 1 from this link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/38/a3142838.shtml Nonetheless the principle is valid and is similar to the choice Bush was faced with when, on 9/11, he ordered that any more hijacked planes flying toward buildings be shot down despite the resulting death of innocent passengers.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 7/11/2006 12:19:46 PM

Amit, thank you for your so so intelligent piece of "western style" reasoning. If our governments could adopt your policies then we could all start feeling free again. Weakness and virtue are not the same. I learned at school what happens to people who don't stand up to bullies. If we invade another country i will cry for the innocent as much as anyone, I'm sure that many Germans were killed in WW2 who weren't nazi's and my heart bleads for them but sometimes you face a decision for the greater good. Winston Churchill once had informatiion that the city of Coventry would be bombed,but evacuating it wouuld have given away his ability to crack codes and would have ultimately have lead to more deaths. he agonised, but let the people of coventry be bombed in order to save more lives. people today have lost that clarity and just want to take the easy way out, as demanded by 60 miutes etc. i will send this article to any one with influence that i know. thank you again
HArry
Ps anyone interested in this check out http://www.annaqed.com/english/under/contents.html

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Posted by harry to Thrutch at 7/11/2006 04:54:41 AM

Hi One Man Laughing,

I agree that a precondition to being moral is knowledge and awareness that it is possible, and women in the darkest corners of the Middle East may be kept in such ignorance that they can be held relatively blameless. But many of the cases that I cited occur in the West, some from women who have become much more Islamic than their parents (the Canadian case is striking in that regard.) I don’t think you can argue that they weren’t aware of other choices, nor that they were coerced into taking the actions they did. Instead I think you have to say that as soon as someone takes the ideology of Islam seriously, then dire consequences ensue. That is why the battle must be fought primarily on the ideological level, and why it will be impossible to win the so-called “war on terror” if we do not name the ideology animating our enemies (much less go out of our way to assure everyone that it is a “great religion of peace”).

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 7/06/2006 03:46:33 PM

For these women to act differently, I think they would need to be aware that it is possible to do so, and that it is morally preferable to do so.  I don't mean to make them sound like innocent victims, but the joy of the west is that it is easy to be good -- that the system allows people to be moral.  For these women to be moral (I almost slipped and typed "to be what we consider moral"), they would have to be able to be moral without being beaten, they would have to have others around them who expect moral behavior.

You can take a work environment, and under a particular boss and system, the workers will be rude, gossiply, and unproductive -- but if you change the boss and system, well, need I say more?

You mention Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sultan, the former whom I greatly esteem, and the latter less so merely because my only knowledge of her comes from that video that was on LGF.  But, Hirsi Ali "stood up to her society" in Holland, and Wafa Sultan, I believe, lives in America.  I mean, come on: any woman who stands up to her society while in the society would escape being beaten into submission or paradise by quite a fluke -- I couldn't name one such woman, not that I'm an expert at all!

I completely agree with you here: "Thus I see little reason to feel optimistic about the likelihood of change coming from within the Muslim world (particularly given that an essential part of the Muslim faith explicitly condones the use of violence to suppress and eradicate any intellectual dissent)."

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Posted by One Man Laughing to Thrutch at 7/01/2006 06:43:38 PM

Women teach their sons the same ideology as their father do, and send them off to war.

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Posted by softwareNerd to Thrutch at 6/29/2006 09:38:54 PM

Dr. Hurd makes a similar point in a slightly different context:

http://drhurd.com/index.php?subaction=
showfull&id=1151253120&archive
=&start_from=&ucat=1&

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 6/25/2006 07:17:13 PM

How true this is. Even here, among my friends in India, its hard to convince them that the US is infact not the "bad" guy or the "bully" that they view it as. It's hard and seems futile, however. It's all a result of corrupt premises and contradictions... religious and collectivist.

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Posted by Ergo to Thrutch at 6/18/2006 11:11:12 AM

I know this has ALMOST nothing to do with this story but I remmeber a while back that you pointed out that some Libertarians pointed out Somalia as a success story for anarchy.

Well here is a story you might find interesting.

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/somalia/articles/20060601.aspx

" The bottom line is that life is easier in an area controlled by an Islamic Courts militia. For that reason, the growing number of successful businessmen in Somalia, have hooked up with an Islamic Courts militia for protection (for which they pay). At least with the Islamic Courts, when a businessman pays, he is more likely to get what he paid for. On the down side, the Islamic Courts back Islamic terrorism, al Qaeda and restrictive Islamic customs."

By the way,you can get a lot of information about what is happening now in somalia on this site.

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Posted by Apollo to Thrutch at 6/01/2006 10:02:19 AM

Hi D.

I agree completely with your comment. In fact, after I made the post (but was no longer at my computer) I realized I should edit it to say simply that the video is a good example of how cliches are empty. Carlin obviously isn't advancing any argument, so there is no fallacy involved in the video itself.

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 5/29/2006 10:20:56 AM

Found the story in several media. Turns out I just missed it. By the way, the newspaper "Die Welt" was one of the newspapers that printed the Mohammed cartoons (http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/01/839667.html). A Muslim living in Germany did not seem to like this and attempted to murder the newspaper's editor-in-chief. Fortunately, he was arrested and the editor was unharmed. Bad as it is, I think the former story, while the form of killing is reminiscent of Islamic terrorism, has less to do with Islamism in Germany than the latter story. The beheader has been in therapy for several years due to his psychosis.

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 5/29/2006 07:04:38 AM

Regarding my previous comment: I checked the source, it's the German newspaper "Die Welt" which I consider a reliable source of information. I find it absolutely astonishing that I did not hear about this incident. Thank you for linking to the story.

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 5/28/2006 12:43:13 PM

Are you sure that this beheading actually took place? Since I live in Germany and haven't heard or read anything about it and since the weather as reported in the story does not match what I believe the current weather in Hamburg is, I think it could be a wrong story. Not that this story seems implausible...

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 5/28/2006 12:35:40 PM

But is Carlin really saying anything? He is taking a bunch of concepts which are appropriate in certain contexts and making them into a word sallad. It seems nihilistic to me.

D. Eastbrook

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Posted by Anonymous to Thrutch at 5/28/2006 08:37:24 PM

I don't know how reliable this site is, but it has an interview (in German) of the event: http://www3.ndr.de/ndrtv_pages_video/0,,OID2410464_VID2414380_TYPreal_LOCint,00.html

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Posted by Amit Ghate to Thrutch at 5/28/2006 03:09:19 PM

So! You are one of those, like the rest of us, who suffers from bloggus interruptus because life keeps interfering. Condolences. Rest well, if you can.

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Posted by George Mason (PBUH) to Thrutch at 5/11/2006 11:26:07 AM